Dene Williams- Adoption Journey from Birth to Adulthood

Today's episode is a special one! Our friend and neighbor, Dene, is our guest on the podcast! She has lived an interesting life with lots of God stories to tell and today we get to hear the one about the adoption of their son. She has experienced the adoption journey from infancy to adulthood which brought both challenges and joys along the way. Their story is one of trust in God's good purposes. You will be blessed by listening to the insight and wisdom God has granted Dene that she now shares with other families who are navigating raising adoptive children of their own. So pull up a chair and settle in for a great story of hope. 

Transcript

juli-_1_04-29-2025_161422: 0:08

Hey y'all. Welcome back to my Tennessee table. Another week of podcast fun. We're so excited to be together, and today I have a surprise for everyone. A special guest, my friend and Lily's friend. And neighbor, I'm telling y'all, our cul-de-sac is amazing. We want you all to move here. So today we have Denae and she's gonna be our guest. Like I said, talking about one part of her journey. She has lots of parts of her journey that she's walked with the Lord and her story is fascinating in lots of ways, but we're just gonna talk about one particular way today. And also to let you know that, um, we without lely, without dynamic lely today, although Dee is pretty dynamic and fun, and so we're gonna do our very best to carry on. So thanks for coming, Denae. Oh, thank you. No, so glad to have you. And I asked her to do it and to pray about it, and she was more than willing to. come alongside and be on the podcast today. I really felt like it was time for an interview. So I spent some time in prayer about what that would look like and maybe who that would be. And the Lord said, Dene and I. Okay. And then the next day I prayed about it and I thought, okay, well, which part of her story, because you're a pastor's daughter. Mm-hmm. You've traveled the world vocally, you still do vocal in studio in Nashville. Your husband's a sound. There's lots going on. You serve at church and lead and other facets. so thanks for saying yes to share your part of the adoption story journey. Yes, yes. with your son. And so Dee and her husband have, a journey to tell about the adoption of their infant son who now is an adult and has launched from the home. And so you've walked this full journey. Adoption with a, a little one. And so, so much knowledge and insight and history and experience. So we're anxious to hear about that. So as we start, would you just tell us how did adoption become part of your story? Okay. Well, thank you for having me. well, it starts that. I married later in life than most of my friends. I was 30 when Bob and I got married, so a lot of my friends were already. Definitely already married and already having children, and, I wanted to be a mom. I never in my life had a desire for a career to be a career woman in a certain career. I loved to sing and I wanted to sing, but I didn't have goals and dreams of being a nurse or being A-A-C-E-O or things that people dream about. I right. I never really had that. So I did go to college, but I didn't marry till 30 and I did a lot of different jobs to, to support myself. But uh, when we got married we decided, okay, well let's wait two years to have a baby.'cause if we just felt like, okay, we wanna enjoy each other and just get to know each other better and travel and do things that you do before, and we both wanted children. So we did wait about a year and a half and then we kind of realized, okay, you know what? It's time we're gonna, let's go for this. So we did, you know, all the normal things and nothing was happening. Mm-hmm. So as the years went by, there were, three full years went well, two full years went by before we started exploring what was going on. Right. You know, what problems we might have or whatever. So we ended up. You know, with specialists and discovering that I had a certain problem and Bob also had a certain problem. So it was kind of a bad combo with just all the points, you know, that not everything was, imperfect sync, right? To move forward with a pregnancy. And so we worked on those things for a while, kept trying. Nothing happened. We did three artificial inseminations mm-hmm. With a lot of shots to give myself more eggs and mm-hmm. Uh, different pills and things, and none of those produced anything. Mm-hmm. So I know today it's very common that insurance companies will pay for in vitro fertilization. And I had good insurance at the time with the record company I was working for, but it did not provide for that. So we kind of came to a financial place where it was like, okay. We either need to, pursue. We, we can probably come up with the money for in vitro or adoption, but definitely not both. Right. And for some reason, you know, I think looking back it was the Lord, but we had two different friends, couples that were friends of ours that had done in vitro mm-hmm. That same year. And it didn't work for either one of them. And we're like, okay, if that's us, then we'll be outta money and we can't, we won't have any choices. So we decided to pursue. Adoption with the money that God had provided up until then, we had a home that we sold and kind of downsized, and that gave us extra money. So that kind of led us to the point of like, okay, this is our decision. This is where we're at. This is the choice we have right now. Right. And will you, I, I hate to interrupt you, but I think it's important to talk about where you were emotionally and how you felt about adoption and Bob, your husband, how he felt about adoption. As you said, it was a crossroads, right? So you're considering two things there in vitro or adoption. Mm-hmm. And, as a couple, I mean, I can imagine you have conversations and you have lots of prayer, and so tell a little bit about that. Well, we were not on the same page. Um, Bob definitely wanted children. He was not ready to give that up, even though we couldn't afford in vitro. He was like, well, what else can we do? Or just give it more time. Bob, he grew up on a farm. He's a farm boy, so he delivered cows and, you know, he was around animals and. All the time, and I don't know, there was something about his southern farm roots that made him think, you know, it needed to be our kid. Mm-hmm. Like our, I hate to put it in animal terms, but like a purebred, like he wanted a, when we got puppy, he wanted a purebred puppy. Mm-hmm. He just had this mentality, and I think it's really from his farm raising, it's like you, you raise a puppy, you can control, you don't have to bring the other stuff in that came from the previous owner. Right. Or from the. Sure. The, animal shelter or whatever, right. Well, I was so, I was so negative about those feelings of his and years down the road I realized, Hmm. There was something to that. Yeah. But, God moved on his heart and that's it. He actually has a story to tell about that, that'cause I was full blown, I just wanted to have a family. Mm-hmm. And I felt like they were saying, Hey, it's just really not gonna happen. So I was full blown. Bought into adoption and he was not. Mm-hmm. So God moved on his heart. That's a different story. Yes. We'll get to that'cause it's a great story. Okay. So, but I just wanted to lay the framework there. Yes. God moved on his heart so that we were in agreement. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So once you came to an agreement then where did you all go from there? Well, we looked at some places locally in Nashville. one was a Christian organization, one was not. We just. Started asking around, getting online, you know, on this was back in 2000, so even online was very new. Right. There were websites, but they weren't very Good compared to what we're now accessible. But, so more we would talk to people and the places in town were like, you know, two year minimum could be five years. You, we just got discouraged about the in town ones. Well, one of the couples that had, that I referred to that had done the in vitro and it didn't work for them. Mm-hmm. They had a successful adoption that same year through a, an agency in, Virginia, Lynchburg, Virginia. And they lived just a mile from us in Spring Hill at the time. And we were like, okay, well let's. Let's go apply there. Yeah.'cause it was successful. So it was really was just word of mouth. Mm-hmm. Through them. Mm-hmm. And their experience. Mm-hmm. And so we, we started our process at, family Life Services in Lynchburg, Virginia. They're still going today. Mm-hmm. They have a home for unwed moms and then also do adoptions. Outside adoptions as well. But our mom was actually living in the mall. Okay. And then you, we, we chatted about this'cause we had the opportunity to be away together this weekend with some other couples and it was super fun. But we had time to kind of chat about your story even more. I knew some of it, but I didn't know all of it. And you had mentioned and early on in this process, just like mountains and mountains of paperwork and meetings and visits and all the things. Well, we definitely. It took weeks and we thought, how come every parent doesn't have to go through this no matter how they're bringing a child home? I mean, they wanted, we had to do our, our financial accounts. We had to have all these personal references, background check, FBI, you know, so many home visits, of course, which most people know is a part of it. Home visits, several home visits, and so it seems like that would be a really wonderful requirement for. People who are already Yeah, everybody. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So we did jump through a lot of hoops. Mm-hmm. It was a lot of hoops. Mm-hmm. you also shared, you had to sign a specific document. Which is interesting'cause this is this, I mean, God was in the whole story right? From the neighbors a couple of miles down the street who happened to adopt. Yes. Who told you of the agency. Right. to how it came to be. But this is another just beautiful part of the story. So, yeah, well talk about the document that you have jumping ahead after we, and maybe we'll go back. I don't know how we got chosen to be. We'll share that first, specifically share that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So we had filled our paperwork out and they called us pretty quickly, which really surprised us.'cause the places in Nashville did not. And they said, Hey, we got your stuff. We just happened to be having this training weekend for prospective adoptive parents, and it's in three weeks and can you come? And we're like, uh, okay. So we mm-hmm. You know, figured it out. And we got there and there were probably 20 other. Maybe 15 other couples there that were applicants that. We're also wanting to hear, you know, about the process and how it all works and the laws in Virginia. Mm-hmm. Every state has their own laws. Okay. It's a state thing, so just all that kind of learning stuff. And we were in the front with our notes and everything. Well, on the last day there was a break at lunch and unbeknownst to us. The birth moms from the home had come into the back. One of the gals that had had a baby previously was giving her story, okay. And they brought the, uh, the pregnant moms in to sit in the back and listen to their friend. But you didn't know. We didn't realize they were, they were, were back there. No. And so when we broke for lunch, they asked for a volunteer for prayer to pray over lunch. And my husband Bob said, I'll pray. And he stood up and prayed. That's so Bob, and I don't remember what he said, but. We learned later from our birth mom that she knew when she heard Bob pray that that was her. Family for her baby. Yes. Yes. That was really sweet. It is emotional and sweet. I mean all, all wrapped up in the story, but also just how the hand of God he's moving when we just have no idea that he's moving. Yep. And he did in that instance, and it didn't take very long. Right. That she, who did she, the birth mom communicated with the agency about y'all, right? Well, they were assigned social workers and. As were we. And so we were home probably a week from that training and we got a phone call from the social worker and she said, Hey, there's a gal that's interested in hearing more from you all and learning more about you. Mm-hmm. So we learned later that she had already really made up her mind before she even Yes.'cause we went up and met her and, anyway, she had already decided that it was us. Yes. So, yes. And how did that, how Bob? Yeah. He, I feel like at that point he was really in, in God had already dealt with his heart. Right. So he was already. He was invested. Yes. At that point. Okay. Okay. Now we get to the document you had to sign. Thank you for reminding me of the backstory. But, so all this was in September of, uh, 2000 and Jude was born. Our son, Jude was born in January of 2001. And. We picked him up in April. Mm-hmm. Of 2001 in Lynchburg. And the day we picked him up, there was a lot of paperwork to sign and we had to Sure, I can imagine. Give our check. Which Jude now? He's 24. And he likes to joke like, how much did you pay for me? And he knows that makes me crazy because I'm like, Jude, we didn't pay for you. These covered Marianne's expenses for living and her medical expenses.'cause she didn't have insurance. Right. His mama, his birth mama. But he loves Yes, yes. But he likes to make that joke. And you wanna see. You're priceless, son. Yeah. There wasn't a limit. Yeah. Now it's a family joke. Yes. But, um, so we had to write our check and we had to do a lot of things, but there was a paper because the list was so long of families that wanted, you know, to adopt. We had to sign a paper I did that said I wasn't pregnant. Mm-hmm. I'm not pregnant. Yeah. And so I would, I laughed and signed that paper after, you know, knowing everything we'd gone through for three year, three plus years. That that definitely was not the case. Mm-hmm. So we signed that silly paper and just went on with the rest of the papers and my mom was with us and we brought Jude home on, he, we just had his gotcha day. April. It was April, 23rd. when he was younger we did, we would give him a gift and go just like another birthday. Yes. You know, go to dinner. Okay. So the rest of the story on the document that you signed. Yeah. Well, as is the case with some adoptions, we quickly, we brought him home on April 25th and three weeks later we drove to Alabama for a. A baby shower down there bought, my husband is from there. So we went to see all of his family and the cousins and the aunts and uncles and the college friends and everybody to, to meet the new baby and have a shower. Yes. Celebrate and celebrate nights that we were there. I got up in the middle of the night and vomited. Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, I must have ate something bad. Mm-hmm. And so every, I'm sure everyone knows what they're thinking now, but Yep. It turned out a few weeks later with some doctor. Doctor calls and tests that I was actually pregnant. Mm-hmm. So I was pregnant when I signed that paper. Oh. I just didn't know it, know it, know it. And I was terrified to call the social worker back because I thought they were gonna take him back. I really did. I thought, well, she's she'll know. She knew me by then and I thought, well, she, she'll know I didn't lie, but. I thought they might say, well, there's a big line, so you gotta bring it back. Oh my gosh. I can imagine. That'd be terrified. I was really scared, but she just kind of laughed and she was like, you know what? God knows what he's doing and. Obviously you're supposed to have this baby. Yes, both babies. Both babies. So babies, how far apart were they both or are they? They were born 10 and a half months apart. Oh my goodness. Yeah, same year. Jude was born in January and our daughter, Bella, was born in December of 2001. Oh my gosh. It makes me think of Ephesians three 20. that God does immeasurably more than we can ask or imagine, right? So you. One baby. And you got two? I got two in one year, yes. Oh, yeah. So, that's the story behind how you got Jude. That's right. Yep. And so are there particular, challenges that, I mean mostly are challenges, are most of the time unexpected, but challenges that you came across that, are poignant or significant and, and then Joys too along the way? Absolutely. There's definitely both. Our first challenge that we discovered was that with, before, just before he turned two, he wasn't really talking. He had said Mama, but then he quit saying it. Mm-hmm. And, he also had a lot of, muscle weakness and things that honestly we didn't know until Bella was born. Mm-hmm. And then seeing the difference in how they were as young babies and that he was very. Mushy and kind of just hung around and she was very clingy and tight, like a little monkey. And we're like, what? Mm-hmm. What is the difference here? So we started exploring some of those things and just through those early childhood years, discovered that he had, a DD, that he was definitely had issues with talking, he also had a sensory, sensory deficit. Mm-hmm. He had sensory disorder his body desired pressure and things to be tight on his body. And he wore hats all the time and he wanted to wear his winter coat in in the summer. Just things that were causing him to wanna be wrapped up and Right. So we. Looked at all those and plus like texture things in his mouth, just all those kind of things. Mm-hmm. That led us to the sensory disorder. And then from there, led to the spectrum, which back in those days you would say Asperger's. Now they really don't want you to identify the levels. Right. They just wanna be on the spectrum. But back in that day, it was more of an Asperger diagnosis. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is, was unexpected. Totally unexpected. He was very high functioning in many other ways. Mm-hmm. and he did eventually talk, you know, he had speech therapy and he caught up with his peers. Mm-hmm. But, um, yeah, it did lead, I mean, all the way through his childhood and into young adulthood. Definitely it got better as he learned how to cope and how to do things differently. And he knew how, where he was different from other kids and he had to adjust to that. Mm-hmm. But, and today he's doing great with it. He is. He's, yes, he said, but he still has some sensory issues today. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, um, yeah, that caused a lot of trouble in school. It caused trouble with learning. And just with. Peers and There were some challenges for sure. Yes. And then how did you and Bob cope? I mean, new parents of, you know, an adopted child or their own, I mean, they don't come with a handbook. No. So neither one of them do. I think the difference with the adopted child is you don't even have the history of the family. Mm-hmm. And I know one mistake that I feel I made. That Bob and I made is, we didn't, uh, weigh that as, as much of a factor as we wish we would have. Mm-hmm. That there are, um, there's DNA in that little body that's not yours, and there it's someone else's and it does come with medical issues. Mm-hmm. As well as could be mental and emotional issues. Mm-hmm. And we didn't. Count on that or even expect it or think, we didn't even think about it. And so when it arose its head and there were problems, we ended up going to a counselor here in Nashville that specializes with adoptive families and he was actually pulling out tens and tens of studies from Harvard and like all these schools mm-hmm. That showed like this is a thing. Mm-hmm. You're not crazy.'cause we thought we were. Crazy. Yeah. We're like, what are we doing wrong? Right. And he's like, you're not doing anything wrong. This kid came with his, he was already programmed a lot. Right. Biologically. And there's more to be done by you and Bob, but there was some biological programming that came with him. Mm-hmm. And we didn't even study any of that. Right. So I wish looking back that we would've. Learned more about that. At the time, and I think now there's definitely more information on it. Right. And you talked about nature versus nurture, right. And that's what you were, that's what you were referring to? Yes. We were really battling that in the beginning because we just thought he was a blank slate that however we raised him and taught him about Jesus and all the things would be exactly how it would go. And so when it didn't go that way, uh, we were. At a loss. Mm-hmm. Until we got some wisdom and help from others. Mm-hmm. I was gonna ask that if you had some, a counselor Yes. Or support groups or parent groups of some sort to help you along the way. Yes, we, well, we had a counselor and he had a support group. Mm-hmm. Through that counseling center. I do wish that we could have found one and there were adoptive groups, but there wasn't a group at the time for adoptive parents with. Kids with learning disabilities or a DD or spectrum. Mm-hmm. Which, I hope there are now I don't really need it now. Right. So I'm in research. Right. I'm sure they're out there. So you would say if, if a family is in that position, whether it's, a child with, Additional needs or not Right. To, seek out support. Yes. And do that journey with other people in community. Yes. We did our journey with our community and they loved on us and they prayed for us, but we didn't really have other couples our age to. Bounce thing off, things off of, to compare like what's going on in your, you know, how did you handle this or how did you handle that? Right. We didn't have that and I wish we would've mm-hmm. Done that. Mm-hmm. It made it harder for sure. Sure. But God did, he still met us in different ways, but going back, I wish I could have found that search. I did search, but I wish I could have, you know. Mm-hmm. Really grasped onto a community like that. Mm-hmm. So if you thought of. How the Lord met you or how you relied on him, how would you describe that? Hmm. Well, our faith grew so much stronger, and I will say we also had more questions than in our faith than we had prior because we really did feel, like I mentioned at the beginning, that God opened those specific doors with this specific son and we loved him with all of our heart and. One of my husband's fears in the beginning was, I don't know if I could love an adoptive child the same way I would love one of my own birth children. Well, of course we had the first year to figure that out pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. Right. And you know, the. The verdict right away was Of course, yes. Yes. You know, there was no difference. Mm-hmm. And there still is no difference. Mm-hmm. however, yeah, there were challenges that were different with each child. Just like birth families have, right. Birth families, you know, they can have two kids that are completely opposite. Well, we had that, we just didn't have the background. You know, we just had the other struggles with the a DD and all the things. Mm-hmm. Um. So we definitely went to the Lord many times. My prayer was often, Lord, I know you sent us this child. You've got to gimme what I, what it takes to figure Amen this out. Amen. Yeah, because I didn't feel like I had it. Mm-hmm. I, I would say, are you sure, Lord? Because I, I felt like you were doing the right thing, but I don't know what the right thing is to do here. And so. That was my common prayer was, you know, you, you placed him, you've gotta equip us. Mm-hmm. Because we don't have it. Mm-hmm. We don't have it. We need it. Mm-hmm. What a great prayer. Prayer he did. And sometimes it was that night and sometimes it was a week later. Sometimes it was through just him giving us wisdom. And sometimes it was through us talking to a counselor. Mm-hmm. You know, it was different. It came in different forms. Mm-hmm. So your faith really was your rock. It was, yeah. Through the, because as I had mentioned in case you're joining us in the middle, that you had, your adoption son from infancy until now, he's in his twenties. Yes. He's launched. He's doing wonderfully. Mm-hmm. And so, while some families may be in the beginning of this walk, right, there might be have a three or 4-year-old, or they might have be at the. Preteen years, you know, just clinging to the Lord. And like you had said, just that was so vulnerable to just being honest of, Lord, I, I trust that you have given this child to us, but I don't know what to do. Mm-hmm. I don't have what it takes. Yeah. Lot. What prayer I felt a lot of times I didn't have what it took. Mm-hmm. Looking back now, I, I either did have it and I just had to pull it out of what God had already placed in me. Or he brought it to me. Amen. So, yes. Yeah. I keep saying me, my husband as well. Yes, of course. It was a team effort. Of course. So was your adoption, is it open? I don't really know how to define in terms. Okay. Well if it closed or open, what those exactly mean in relation to adoption. Right. Well, in the beginning, in Virginia, you can, the adoptive parents can choose if they want it to be open. Okay. Closed or me, or, semi-open was what they called it at the time, which was you can communicate to the birth mom, but it's through a mediator, which is usually one of the social workers at the agency. Okay. So for the first, nine years, we communicated regularly with Maryanne and we would do letters, little videos, cards. We even sent her, you know, flowers on Mother's Day and things like that. Oh, that's great. But it all had to be funneled through. The agency, we even did some phone calls, but the social worker was on the line with us. Okay. And Maryanne is his birth mama? Yes, yes. And we knew her name. We just didn't have identifying information. Mm-hmm. She didn't know where we lived, but she knew Bob was a recording engineer, so she probably figured it out. Right. But, she didn't have her address or even our last names or anything. Mm-hmm. After the ninth year? Mm-hmm. Or 10th year. Mm-hmm. Did you, well, it would've been prior to that, that you shared with Jude of his adaptiveness. Oh, yes. Yes. So how would, how did that go? How did you approach that? Well, we had read a few books when we were preparing, and one of them had suggested. To start from the very beginning and so that it's just a part of his normal life. And so that's what we did. And being that our daughter was not only a, a few months behind, we would sit together and read the little books. We went on Amazon, early years of Amazon when it was only books. Yeah. Do you remember when it was only books? Well, I don't, but I hear that's how it started. I was late to the Amazon game, so it used to just be books. And I remember we bought a few. Books about adoption that were for children. Mm-hmm. And we'd read the books together. The older he got, the more of the story I told him. Mm-hmm. But in the beginning it was a simple, you know, mommy's tummy didn't work right. And I couldn't have a baby in my tummy. And so God gave us Maryann and she gave you to us so we could have a family. It was that simple. Mm-hmm. And then, um, you know, the older he got, we filled in more blanks. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that was a wonderful way to approach it. Yeah. Because then his identity from the very beginning is with y'all, right. From another mama. Right. But the identity is linked to your family. Yes. And so, so, and we always talked her up because I know, and I, I'm over it now, but in the, in the first few years, I had a really hard time with the verbiage. This girl gave her baby up for adoption, and I think. Society is coming out of that for sure. Mm-hmm. But when we adopted Jude, everybody was saying that. Mm-hmm. How about the girl that gave him up? Mm-hmm. And we knew her pretty closely by the time we had visited several times. Talked with her, loved on her. Mm-hmm. And it was far from her giving him up. She, she would've gladly kept him had she felt she could have taken care of him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we felt. Her placing him with us was very selfless, was her knowing, Hey, I'm gonna give up my chance to parent this baby that I have, because I know I can't give him what he really needs and I wanna give him to someone who can. Mm-hmm. So. Used to Cho, we chose to say placed, she placed him with us for adoption. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. just to bring to light, how'd you got to be here is through that birth mama. Yeah. And who did allow him to be placed and it was a selfless act on her part. So thank you for honoring her. Yes. We love her. So, how's Jude relationship with Marianne now? It's good. Yeah. Uh, when he was 10, we decided to open it up. She had gotten married and started having her own family. Mm-hmm. She has three children now that are separate besides Jude. Mm-hmm. And, once she had had, two of the children and was, had been married for a long time and we had visited with all of them at numerous times and met them in the middle. They were in Indiana and we would meet them. We decided it was that we felt. Comfortable. I don't wanna, I mean, I wanna say safe, but in the beginning it was, I did feel unsafe. I wasn't sure Right. You know, what was gonna go on. But we felt safe and comfortable to open it up. So the agency took themselves out of the picture. We, they gave us all, each other's information, and we just continued, basically the same communication that we had. We just did it ourselves. Oh, very good. So Jude, he's 24 now, and he still, he talks to her and, and. His siblings, specifically his sister who was born, a couple years after him, half sister, and they text and send pictures and a couple times she and her husband have come through town going different places and they've, we've met them or Jude would go and meet them for dinner, whatever. So it's good. It's good. That's good. Yeah. That's good. Okay, so I have never asked you this before. Okay. But what do you think the impact has been on your daughter? Okay. Good question. we did not really know that until later in her life. She's 23. Mm-hmm. She's about to graduate college. as they were coming up, they were so close together, not even a year apart. It was just like fricking frack. Yeah. You know, everywhere we went, it was the two of them, they were in diapers together. Mm-hmm. They did all the things together. they were always in, they were one year different in school, but, you know, just same school, same everything. And. They were very different. You know, she was very driven and a great student. He was not. Mm-hmm. You know, they have a lot of differences. But later in life when she had some personal emotional struggles, she, this is probably three years ago, she was able to just honestly tell us that, you know, she knew that we were having. In the, in the high school years, had the struggles with him, with his learning and his behavior and that she just kept so many things to herself'cause she didn't wanna add to that. Mm-hmm. She didn't wanna add to our plate. So when she was struggling or needed certain things, I mean, she definitely did come to, to us for things she needed, but maybe emotionally things. Mm-hmm. She didn't really expose that because she was, didn't wanna add to our, struggle. Mm-hmm. And that really. It was sad to me that we didn't, pay more attention to that. Mm-hmm. And she's, you know, we've talked about it numerous times. She's forgiven us. It's all, it's good now. But yeah, looking, looking back, that is something I would change. I would've paid more attention to her needs emotionally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that sounds like Bella. Yeah. She's just a, just a servant hearted. Yeah. Just a beautiful, sweet. Soul who loves Jesus. Mm-hmm. And empathetic and astute so I can see how she could read the family. Yes. And think, and not to say, this isn't anyone's fault. No. It's just the way it was. And thankfully she found the words to express that she did. And thankfully and adulthood, it was a discussion and it was cleared up and forgiveness was given. Mm-hmm. And it's, yeah, it's been good. But again, like. Like I said earlier, like if I could go back, you know, I would find that support group. Well that's another thing I would change going back. Mm-hmm. Is that I would, during the story, and this is good for any family, even families are full of their birth children when one of them is really struggling acting out, you know, giving a lot of trouble, the focus and energy, and it does need to. Energy has to go there. Right. But definitely don't forget that your other kids, there's things they're dealing with that they might not even be talking about. Right. We just didn't see it necessarily, so we were like, oh, she's good. We don't really need to check in. Right. That's what I was gonna say, a check in, because sometimes you have to draw that out of our kids. Right. You know? How are you feeling about this? I'm good. Okay, well tell me how you're good or it's not great. Well, what's going on with doesn't make it great. You know, sometimes we just have to work a little bit When our energy is placed in one place, it's hard sometimes to muster up a little more, to divide your energy. So, exactly. That's words of wisdom. So as we kind of wrap up, okay, what would be, your encouragement or just counsel to families who are just in it, you know, maybe. Thinking about adoption and then to families who are in the midst of raising their family. Yeah, their adopted child. Well, I kind of wanna make a joke here. Go ahead. Make a joke. If you're thinking about adoption, definitely go the root of the yard sale and the cookbook and all the things you can do to raise money because yes, when we were adopting in 2000, it actually was not a thing to raise money for your adoption. Mm-hmm. And we were very involved in a church community, a big church community. But it, it definitely, it wasn't a thing like you either had the money or you didn't. Right. Or you borrowed it from your parents or whatever you did. Mm-hmm. And then about four years later, everybody was having all these Yes fundraisers. And we were like, wait a minute, where was this? I know. Maybe could you a post fundraiser? I know, right? Can you pay me back? Jude would say, you gonna, am I gonna pay you back for what you paid for me? I know. No, definitely take advantage of that because Sure we didn't, we didn't know about it, but. Um, it's amazing that so many people are willing to, that's what I was gonna say, help people start their families and ask had we known we would've done that. But yeah, make an ask. Definitely do that, and for sure find that support group, whether there's a learning issue or not. It's just adoptive parents and I know there's a ton of them out there, way more than when we started. So find that group and then. As we just mentioned, check in on your other kids. If you have other kids, even other adopted kids, check in with them about how they're doing when your energy goes more to one. Um, also just man, trust the Lord. Amen. Trust the Lord that if he has completed, if he has started that work, he's gonna complete it. Mm-hmm. He started the work of our family by placing Jude with us and those times that were difficult. You know, I just had to know he's gonna complete this. Mm-hmm. I don't see it. I don't see it, but mm-hmm. He promised it, so yeah. Just clinging to the word. Mm-hmm. Clinging to each other for sure. Yes. I have talked to my husband and other people about, oftentimes, well, I wanna say all the time when there's a purpose for one person in the family, or a call and one person in the family, there's a purpose for everybody in the family. That's right. So, while there's a purpose in adopting Jude. All of you are grown into Christ's likeness and sharpened and Yes. Um, deepened. And you all have offerings to give people from your experience. So it's not just for one person within a family. God's working his purposes throughout. And so just like you said, trust him. I haven't walked that journey, but to trust him that he has good purposes for everyone. Yes. Because there will be ups and downs. Just like a, just like a birth family with birth children. Mm-hmm. It's the same. Yeah. There's great days and there's hard days. Yes. So you just have to don't, you know, definitely don't think we shouldn't have done this. Mm-hmm. I know that was one of the questions we talked about. Yeah. Was would you do it again? That's my last question. Oh, yes. Knowing everything you know. Yeah. Would, would you do, do it again, knowing what I know. Okay. Well, I definitely would do it again, because even through the difficult times, we know, we just never lost that complete knowledge that it was God's plan for Jude to be with us. Mm-hmm. Um. But I, my answer is I would do it again, but I would do it differently. Mm-hmm. And that's the things that we just talked about. Mm-hmm. I think most parents, I would say that, yeah. Um, right. We would all do something differently. Right. I would have a little worry if, if a parent was like, I was great. I did everything super, you know, so, yes. Well, I wanna talk a little bit, just briefly, I don't know a lot about the organization, but a friend of ours who is, very dedicated and has a passion for, foster children, she shared a site with me that's called Tennessee Kids Belong in this site. it Is equipping the community to improve experiences and outcome for children, that are in the foster care system, and then possibly moving on to adoption. And so I watched one of those stories of one of the young people, and he's 13 and still waiting, for foster care or adoption. And so if you have prayed about or thought about, or maybe this is the fourth time this week, that adoption popped up on you. I don't know. On your serious radio or a friend talked about it. I mean, I don't know what the Lord is speaking to you about, but if so, uh, maybe just take a look there and maybe if it's not adoption, maybe it's just a call to be helpful to that community either in time or donations. So it's called Tennessee Kids Belong and there's lots of organizations like that. I wish I knew more, but thank you so much for being here. You are welcome, sis down the block. At my table. I know. I appreciate you coming. I've been at this table a lot of times. We've had, well, Lely and I were talking about, we had Bible study at that table in there, but it was still at the table. So Bible stay at the table, meals at the table. Yes. Card games at the table. Yes. Yes. Fun stuff. Prayer at the table. so thank you. Well y'all, thank you so much for being with us on my Tennessee table today. This is an important episode. So really, we usually say if you learn something, would you just share it with a friend? And I really mean it today. If you've learned something or something's resonated with your heart, would you be willing just to share the episode, with a friend or maybe your small group or someone the Lord is leading you towards sharing it with. And just know like every time that you are welcome at our table anytime. So, We'll be back together next week. Thanks for joining us.